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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2011, 16:06 
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Recently a lot of people have gotten tired of the corrupt control over politics that the corporate world has. Inspired ideologically from the Arab Spring movement(According to Wikipedia), starting in the thousands and maintaining in the hundreds of people would head to wall street to protest its corrupt ways as well is its error in handling the economic crisis and freedom from blame and prosecution.

The disturbing part how the city of New York has responded to this. I am not sure if this is legit
http://i51.tinypic.com/296i2iq.jpg
But it looks valid. What seems to be the case now though, is over 1000 have been arrested in a peaceful protest. Some woman was assaulted by a police officer with pepper spray the other day while having done nothing at all to warrant it.

All of these things happening after J.P. Morgan Chase donated 4.6 million dollars to the New York Police Department. The media in America is downplaying this severely, but it is catching global attention. The world wide string of revolution fever has spread to the United States.

Some cool things

- A group of marines has decided to dress in full uniform and head to Wall Street to protect the protesters
- protests have sprung in Los Angeles, Washing DC, Chicago, Boston Seattle, and Albuquerque.
- People around the world and shooting up the nets about the attention this is getting worldwide

That said, the only thing I can say is that I hope a hell of a lot more people make their way to New York. People also need to begin protesting the New York City Police Department for inhibiting our first amendment rights. But who is going to side with the protestors? Someone needs too. The last president who attempted a war with the corporate world was assassinated and his brother would follow. Today lobbyists rule the world. What will come of this effort?


Hopefully something that doesn't sizzle out. That is my opinion at least. What is yours?


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2011, 23:27 
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To be honest, I've been so busy with grad school that I haven't really been paying attention so I haven't really formed an opinion. That said, in the interest of showing both sides, I thought I'd post this Twitter rant from a friend:

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Congrats, NYPD. You gave the #OccupyWallStreeg [sic] guys exactly what they wanted: legitimacy. The #OccupyWallStreet guys are like little kids who hold their finger an inch from your face for an hour, then tattle when they get hit. I'm in favour of fixing a broken system. This is not the way.

Just because I criticize #OccupyWallStreet, people call me some sort of right-wing fascist tool. No, you fools. This is not black-and-white. I agree that Wall St. largely sucks, and that Republican deregulation was the #1 factor in our economy tanking. But this protest isn't it. Your protest needs to have more narrow goals. "WALL STREET SUCKS!" isn't good enough. Start with "We protest TARP and the bailouts". Of course, you can't do that, because if you do, you're protesting largely against people you consider allies, like the Democrats. Oh, and if you're going to protest? Put the fucking iPhone away. Yeah, you know, the Foxconn developed, Apple produced $200 (min.) one? Apple's business practices are ruining patent law in America. Foxconn employees KILLED THEMSELVES to protest their treatment. Remember that? But no, continue to buy their shit while protesting capitalism. And completely miss the irony there.


Followed by this article: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the-incoherent-agenda-of-occupy-wall-street/

Like I said, I haven't quite formed an opinion yet, but I do agree that there are some serious flaws with the design of this protest. The idea is good, but just hating Wall Street isn't going to really get anyone anywhere. It's probably just going to get people hurt.



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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2011, 03:37 
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The last president who attempted a war with the corporate world was assassinated and his brother would follow.


What? Are you talking about Kennedy? Are you implying those events (the first of which is a colorful bit of hyperbole) are related? Lee Harvey Oswald was closer to being a Marxist.

All I can really say is it's hilarious how people are messaging each other about all this shit using products and technology which the private sector had an immense hand in making usable and affordable for a large number of Americans. It's fucking pointless, because money speaks much more loudly about Americans' actual preferences. Sweatshops in China (at least temporarily) benefit many Americans now. Arguably it's not even that bad a deal for the Chinese, low-tech farming is absolutely brutal, backbreaking work.

The comparison to the Arab spring is nonsensical. Arabs were being screwed by their unelected dictators (some of which were U.S. supported). As a people, U.S. citizens have themselves to blame when their leaders screw them (and nothing even remotely comparable to the scale of misgovernment in the middle east has occurred). Our fucking "Oh no, this is terribad!" years of '08 to the present are like magical candyland with ponies and rainbows compared to living in Syria or Libya or Yemen or Egypt or...


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2011, 10:27 
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Quote:
The comparison to the Arab spring is nonsensical. Arabs were being screwed by their unelected dictators (some of which were U.S. supported). As a people, U.S. citizens have themselves to blame when their leaders screw them (and nothing even remotely comparable to the scale of misgovernment in the middle east has occurred). Our fucking "Oh no, this is terribad!" years of '08 to the present are like magical candyland with ponies and rainbows compared to living in Syria or Libya or Yemen or Egypt or...


The revolutions in the middle east are ideologically the same as what is going on in wall street. Just because we are not controlled by a dictator who constantly exploits us in the same way does not change the fact that our government is completely corrupt. I know not everyone is protesting for this reason, a lot of this is just fueled by anger at the job market, but lots of people are there to protest the complete control over our political system that the private sector has. And the control does exist. How do you get elected? TWO THINGS MUST HAPPEN that are completely irreverent to actually getting votes. You must be chosen by one of the political parties that has (imo) unlawful control over the political seats in this nation and you must also get a lot of cash donations. It does not matter how many genocides are going on in the world, they do not make the process that we go through to elect people into office any more justified.

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What? Are you talking about Kennedy? Are you implying those events (the first of which is a colorful bit of hyperbole) are related? Lee Harvey Oswald was closer to being a Marxist.


I would say that Kennedy waging war with the privately owned federal reserve and him being assassinated are definitely related.

Quote:
All I can really say is it's hilarious how people are messaging each other about all this shit using products and technology which the private sector had an immense hand in making usable and affordable for a large number of Americans. It's fucking pointless, because money speaks much more loudly about Americans' actual preferences. Sweatshops in China (at least temporarily) benefit many Americans now. Arguably it's not even that bad deal for the Chinese, low-tech farming is absolutely brutal, backbreaking work.


Are you implying that because the private sector has made us these great devices and tools we should just lay down, let them step on our backs, and be grateful?
There may be a lot more to it, but one thing is certain.

-The private sector is not only responsible for this crisis, they directly caused it with their actions
-People in this country are suffering because of the economic crisis.
--Hence, the private sector is responsible for the suffering of a lot of people who have done nothing to harm said private sector.


See, my thing is that I am an anti capitalist and would be ragging about Wallstreet(Probably not in a thread) even if none of this protesting, or even the economic crisis of 07/08 didn't happen. Imo what is going on right now is not some shitty little political squat-and-twat. It is an attempt at reform.


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2011, 13:03 
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The revolutions in the middle east are ideologically the same as what is going on in wall street. Just because we are not controlled by a dictator who constantly exploits us in the same way does not change the fact that our government is completely corrupt. I know not everyone is protesting for this reason, a lot of this is just fueled by anger at the job market, but lots of people are there to protest the complete control over our political system that the private sector has. And the control does exist. How do you get elected? TWO THINGS MUST HAPPEN that are completely irreverent to actually getting votes. You must be chosen by one of the political parties that has (imo) unlawful control over the political seats in this nation and you must also get a lot of cash donations. It does not matter how many genocides are going on in the world, they do not make the process that we go through to elect people into office any more justified.


Our government isn't squeaky-clean, but all said and done, it's one of the most transparent and best governments in the world regardless of what party is in control. I'm not saying it's perfect (far from it), but it's really not even vaguely similar to the middle east situation. Besides, you don't need to rely upon only corporate donations to win elections. Union cash will do just as well, and it's not like every foundation, corporation, or personal donor holds the same political views. And the major political parties draw a huge amount of funding from small donations too.

Presidents are elected so the American people (in some average sense) bear a lot of the blame for what sort of government they get (which really is still a pretty good government all things considered).

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I would say that Kennedy waging war with the privately owned federal reserve and him being assassinated are definitely related.


Gonna be honest. You're off in crazyland with that.

Quote:
Are you implying that because the private sector has made us these great devices and tools we should just lay down, let them step on our backs, and be grateful?
There may be a lot more to it, but one thing is certain.


No, I'm implying that if people really cared all they would have to do is stop buying those products. Any company would be wiped out if all its customers disappeared. The power is sitting in the American people's hands, but it's pretty clear a lot of them don't give a shit given they either have smartphones or would like to buy smartphones. And even if you told them what the cost was in China for those smartphones, most wouldn't give up their smartphones or alter their purchasing behavior.

Quote:
-The private sector is not only responsible for this crisis, they directly caused it with their actions
-People in this country are suffering because of the economic crisis.
--Hence, the private sector is responsible for the suffering of a lot of people who have done nothing to harm said private sector.


The private sector consists of people. People in the private sector were hurt. Most of the private sector had little to do with it. And this ignores how government policy influenced loan behavior. This same logic can be used to say pretty much anything positive or negative about the private sector given how large it is and how much behavior varies between companies.

Quote:
See, my thing is that I am an anti capitalist and would be ragging about Wallstreet(Probably not in a thread) even if none of this protesting, or even the economic crisis of 07/08 didn't happen. Imo what is going on right now is not some shitty little political squat-and-twat. It is an attempt at reform.


Then talk about some possible reforms. Get more specific. Anger without a well thought out goal is pointless. What do you think capitalism would be replaced with? No successful country in the world doesn't rely upon at least some roughly capitalist system. There are many different variations of capitalism though. Socialism blends, pseudo-marxist varieties, the hypothetical nonexistent anarcho-capitalism.

For an example of possible issues, we can talk about how property rights need to be changed for things like water (in many places you can't sell your water rights, so your incentive is to only constrain your usage to how much water you get) or the land that is a mile below your house (oil companies can frack there, which can potentially poison your well or damage your house). Environmental regulation is currently ad hoc and lacks a good philosophy or design behind it. It really is a hard problem to come up with a good workable philosophy and framework.

Or maybe we can talk about the proper place of financial regulation and how bad financial regulation can encourage boom-bust cycles whereas good regulation will at least not exacerbate them. We can talk about the insanity of how the bailouts were given out (I have a hard time justifying most government handouts to corporations) or how Keynesians assuming that where the government spends its money to stimulate aggregate demand isn't similar in importance to how much they spend it is maybe just a bit crazy.

Or we can talk about the dangers of regulatory capture or crony capitalism and how to prevent them.


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2011, 18:36 
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financing. Our government would have to be reformed, and the people who are protesting wall street probably are not willing to make such bold a stand as to force(try to force) something so drastic. It may at this point sound like I believe that this will accomplish nothing, which I do believe, but I will always hope that it will. Even if it is brought around by sloppy protesting procedure as Crystal pointed out earlier, I am a personal fan of revolution, especially bloody ones, so a few people blocking a bridge really crosses no moral lines to me. However, police handling the situation the way they are does.


The issues you bring up, I could not agree more with them being crucial. Fundamentally they are all products of capitalism, all products of its greed based philosophy. One can fix each individual problem as it comes up, spending millions and taking years, but unless the source of the problem is addressed they will continue to pop up probably as long as we exist as a nation. What would I like to see done? Something different, I am not economics savvy so I cannot comment on the finer points or the mechanics, but surely something more nationalized and more direct towards the progress of the country and its people(I would go as far as saying the world but that is me asking too much) as opposed to the progression of the top 2% would be possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqN3amj6AcE

Not to argue the validity of this mans predictions, but people with this mind state are the people that run Wall Street. That is what I think at least. But when it comes down to it, I don't fucking know. It is a complex issue, one hard to objectively side with(At least it is for myself). I am just tired of everything constantly giving way to the path of most profit.


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 23:39 
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financing. Our government would have to be reformed, and the people who are protesting wall street probably are not willing to make such bold a stand as to force(try to force) something so drastic. It may at this point sound like I believe that this will accomplish nothing, which I do believe, but I will always hope that it will. Even if it is brought around by sloppy protesting procedure as Crystal pointed out earlier, I am a personal fan of revolution, especially bloody ones, so a few people blocking a bridge really crosses no moral lines to me. However, police handling the situation the way they are does.


I see nothing morally wrong with shoddy demonstrations. On the other hand, violent revolutions are horrible on average. The U.S. is hardly in a situation where the downtrodden would benefit from one.

Quote:
The issues you bring up, I could not agree more with them being crucial. Fundamentally they are all products of capitalism, all products of its greed based philosophy. One can fix each individual problem as it comes up, spending millions and taking years, but unless the source of the problem is addressed they will continue to pop up probably as long as we exist as a nation. What would I like to see done? Something different, I am not economics savvy so I cannot comment on the finer points or the mechanics, but surely something more nationalized and more direct towards the progress of the country and its people(I would go as far as saying the world but that is me asking too much) as opposed to the progression of the top 2% would be possible.


No one has ever proposed a better way of handling economies than capitalism (I speak in a very loose sense here, but mean that there is some notion of property, government, and barter, exchange, or payment between individuals). Literally no one. I don't mean just not given a fully-fleshed out, tested model. I mean no other ideas even pass the sniff test for "would this ever work at all". I would also argue that it's a bit of an exaggeration (although common) to say that capitalism has a greed based philosophy (at least in the sense you speak of which is maximizing profits). Capitalism could work fine in a society where people didn't value money as much, but the results would look much different. Lots of small business owners are satisfied with being a certain size, even though they could hypothetically make more money. Lots of people don't bother working as many hours as possible. Lots of the problems I spoke of are the result of a lack of good property rights. They are problems caused by a lack of a legal market for a good. That's far from being a problem with capitalism. It's a problem with the lack of it in a sector.

The beauty of capitalism is its flexibility. No one group truly controls the economy (that guy exaggerates drastically; the U.S. government could easily wipe out Goldmann Sachs if it wanted to but it's not even a vaguely good idea). Goods can be public, private, communally owned, corporate, etc. It rewards production with money and funnels it around very efficiently (usually). Now government is necessary to set the background for this (essentially define property, build and supply public goods, print money). Property rights are extremely important, because when well defined they help prevent externalities. They also shape markets (good property rights aid efficient allocation). They also give people an incentive to work and confidence that someone can't just walk up and steal their stuff.

Nothing will be perfect, but spot-fixing is probably in some sense the best that can be done. For one thing, there are a lot of variations of capitalism and different sizes of business within it. Your neighbor running a stable and selling horse-riding lessons is probably not going to destabilize any significant economy. No one really invented capitalism, it's basically an evolved (and evolving) system so it's not surprising that it usually works pretty well but has occasional nasty rough spots.

Nationalization of too much of the economy has proved disastrous almost everywhere it has been tried. It just shifts more problems to the government. Which is really bad, because that's like putting all your eggs in one basket. A government which has to command-control the entire economy will fail miserably and bring everyone down with it (basically all the risk becomes concentrated in the government). Government financial collapse would be about a million times worse than the 2007-2008 panic. Plus, the more powerful and influential a government is, the more it is worth to corrupt it.

I'd say more but my "m" key is missing and I'm tired of copy-pasting all my m's in.


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2011, 12:39 
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To be honest, they are protesting to the wrong thing...
Actually, Wall Street plays a vital factor in what made America an economic powerhouse. Also, it allows growing companies to get proper funding through public offerings (IPOS iirc). Many of those get to make very useful products for your everyday life.

You can be an anti-capitalist, but surely you want America to be great (if not you would be hating wall street for nothing, really), but the fact is, you can't judge the whole of wall street for
what some individuals did for a quick buck. It's as if I blamed you for my country's dependence on the US because you are an American (wtf?).



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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2011, 23:02 
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I dislike a lot of things about capitalism ideologically but now is not the time to get into that. When it comes to Wall street , I kind of went on about a lot of shit, but the main thing I dislike about the private sector is its involvement with our politicians. I dislike their influence over trends over development, primarily corruption within the industries of insurance, pharmaceuticals, and oil. I hate lobbyists, I hate campaign donations.


I am definitely pro America; I want America to be the greatest nation in the world. But I have a different view of what would make America the greatest nation. I do not think that us having the most economical power around the world is what makes a country great. I am not against us being on top in terms of industry, but I do not see why we have to be number one. I would much rather have a non corrupt government than one capable of owning the rest of the world.


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2011, 10:19 
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[QUOTE=Musing with Ampersands;129011]I dislike a lot of things about capitalism ideologically but now is not the time to get into that. When it comes to Wall street , I kind of went on about a lot of shit, but the main thing I dislike about the private sector is its involvement with our politicians. I dislike their influence over trends over development, primarily corruption within the industries of insurance, pharmaceuticals, and oil. I hate lobbyists, I hate campaign donations.


I am definitely pro America; I want America to be the greatest nation in the world. But I have a different view of what would make America the greatest nation. I do not think that us having the most economical power around the world is what makes a country great. I am not against us being on top in terms of industry, but I do not see why we have to be number one. I would much rather have a non corrupt government than one capable of owning the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]

What you actually point out is the shift from "left vs right" from years ago with the new one that is not apparent- corporations vs individuals. But that is a whole other topic, as you said.

In regards to your other point, industries need a strong economy to develop to their highest potential. After all, a strong economy makes more people able to buy stuff and allows industries to get bigger loans that allow their expansion in costly projects. This, of course, tends to benefit a population's well being. If you are "number one", it allows you to have a bigger cushion when in economic hardships. The clearest example is the fact that the US dollar is the currency of reference in all the world, which means that debt is usually measured by your currency, which gives you certain control of your very own debt. Other countries aren't so lucky- take Argentina 2001.

As for corruption, I will agree with you, but to an extent. There will always be some corruption- can't expect perfection since we are all humans. I do accept that a nation must seek to keep corruption to a minimum, and to be honest, in the scale of corruption, you are in a good situation.



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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2011, 14:24 
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While I support quite a few of the points that the people who are occupying Wall Street, and other cities across North America (some of my friends are organizing sub-groups for Occupy Vancouver, in fact) are making, I do not support the movement wholeheartedly. The Occupation movement does make a few valid points, for example:

The disparity between the poor and the wealthy in the US is HUGE. The difference in income between an average CEO and an average employee is something like a ratio of 350:1, which is far out of proportion compared to other countries in and even outside the First World. It doesn't help that when those executives, through pushing for deregulation and lobbying for lower government taxation and control, manage to fray the social security safety net and nearly destroy their own economy, they have the gall to effectively extort money from the Federal Government (who has the choice of either bailing them out, or making the damage far worse), while laying off thousands of the same employees that Federal Government is supposed to protect, while taking negligible hits themselves, if any.

Secondly, if the media "coverage" of the Occupations have taught us anything, it is that mainstream media has lost whatever pretensions to impartiality it has ever had. The same with the American metropolitan police forces (jury's still out on the RCMP). The newscasters and cops on the line aren't bad people, and I'm not implying they are. They get their orders from high up and they do their jobs. Some of them might have valid reasons for agreeing with those orders, some might not. It's a high tension situation and shit happens even when it shouldn't especially for cops. The problem is, the people who gave those orders in the first place are putting the welfare of corporate backers ahead of their own electorate. This means that the people running the corporations and financial institutions have effectively become more powerful than the basic tenets of liberal democracy: a sovereign power composed of all who are ruled by it.

Lastly, one thing which hasn't really been touched upon here: Corporations have the same rights and privileges as individuals, but they cannot be prosecuted like individuals. We cannot arrest an entire board of directors for fraud, as much as we would like to. This is something which effectively allows corporations to circumvent the rule of law: naturally, not good.

However, while these are good points, they are not enough to compel me, personally, to march in support of the Wall Street Occupiers:

Quanta is right: A market liberal economy with government regulation to prevent rampant abuse or widespread poverty (maxmax constrained by disaster avoidance) is the most effective economic system in the history of the world. Command economies don't work because they rely on the competence of not a wide range of, but a single authority to ensure everyone gets what they want, and that works terribly. The concept of the corporation is not evil, the corporations themselves have become malicious because they have learned that they have been able to get away with it. There are exceptions to the rule, of course. I disagree with Quanta (IIRC) about stuff like privatizing utilities (where most of the factors of the market don't WORK) and I am in favour of regulating financial institutions, but that leads me to my next point:

The system can be FIXED. We don't need to tear down the system and build a new, experimental, untested, and most likely disastrously inefficient one to "fix" all of our social problems. Market Liberalism is not a perfected form of capitalism and spot fixes and regulation probably will work better. The struggle isn't between individuals and corporations, it is between the state and the corporations. The problem isn't that the rights of the individual are trampled, that's merely a symptom, the problem is that the state, which is composed of every single voter in a democratic society, is being turned into an appendage of the corporations through our own apathy and refusal to hold the institutions designed to protect us accountable, in an age where IPads and Twilight have replaced bread and circuses.

Lastly: This is a First World Problem, not a capitalist one. The "99%" are motivated by the same ideals that motivate the people they are opposed to. The concept of individuality, that you can be whatever you want when you grow up, that "I am entitled to this" or "I want this" or "You have no right to deny me this". This is a cornerstone of Western Society, it is also what allows the bank CEOs to say "I am protecting my interests", "How dare you hate me for being wealthy", "I worked hard for this and I deserve it". Until the paradox of individuality is solved, or at least mitigated, we will have the left hand clawing at the right. Even if the Wall Street Occupation (which has been so very facetiously compared to the Arab Spring) succeeds beyond all of our wildest dreams, and we have CEOs strung up on street lights, what will stop a new elite from rising in their place, and erasing any possibility of change?

Nothing.



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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 27 Oct 2011, 12:36 
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think somewhat of a revival of this issue is necessary, seeing as how this issue has not only continued to spread to other cities, but it has begun to get violent in them as well. Violence which is primarily coming from the end of the law.

A man gets blasted and falls to the ground in oakland, as a few concerned citizens rush over the help him up, the police retaliate-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q

Even if you blame the individual police officer, what the fuck do you expect to happen when you order police officers to open fire with their non lethal but certainly still very dangerous weaponry upon civilian protesters that might b e agitated, but by all means would still be considered peaceful.

In both Atlanta and Oakland, riot squads have been dispatched to break up the protests. THIS IS FIRST DEGREE FASCISM. Sure, we are not opening fire on them with machine guns like in Libya, but ideologically the same thing is being done: the protests are being forced to come to a halt.

There is more to being free than obeying the fucking law. Using "they were not legally protesting" as an excuse does not justify this at all. Some rights should supersede bullshit "illegal camping" laws.

Now I am done ranting.


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2011, 00:41 
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Generally speaking I'm very pro business, but corporations piss me off. Not as much as politicians that let them get away with this shit, but they still need to accept some accountability.



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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2011, 20:03 
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If you want to know how bad the system has gotten try looking up the little red number starting with SS on your birth certificate on the World Stock Exchange. You'll see that you as a person are an Actively traded Security Stock in the World Securities market. Traded across the board for your dollar value as human resource and your potential to generate an income to a given national economy. The same way ship manifest are handled based on their dollar value. Worse than the law of the land governed by a single country is this Universal Corporate Code being governed as law between nations for the purpose of profit. With you as an expendable resource tied to them only as a dollar amount. As you continue to have your homes, food, families taken away from along with your rights in every country you will find out far too late that you can't eat ill created fiat currency. Then you shall perish and die. And it will be your own fault for accepting that you can fix a system that hasn't existed in the united states since Kennedy was assassinated for fighting against them and his paid for replacement secretly signed laws turning everything over to foreign non governing powers and corporations on December 23, 1913. This law was called: Federal Reserve Act (ch. 6, 38 December 23, 1913, ch.3 is an Act of Congress that created and set up the Federal Reserve System, the central banking system of the United States of America, and granted it the legal authority to issue Federal Reserve Notes (now commonly known as the U.S. Dollar and Federal Reserve Bank Notes as legal tender The Act was signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson

If you look in the US Constitution. It specifically notes that the US system is to NEVER EVER submit to the tyranny of the foreign or other Central Banking Systems and that NO CENTRAL BANK SHALL EVER BE PERMITTED ON THE SOIL OF THE UNITED STATES AND THAT ANY ACTION TO THE CONTRARY IS AN ACT OF HIGH TREASON AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

And this is the 1961 speech referring to the Central banks at the time current attempts to control the United states economy that got JFK killed.: „For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence–on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system that has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, and no secret is revealed.“ - JFK April 27, 1961

It was hard to miss the veiled reference to The Illuminati (House of Rothschild), Bilderbergers, CFR and the other secret societies that rule the world from behind the scenes. Our consumer society didn’t just happen; it was planned. Not in 1910, or 1954, but in the year 1832, the year William Huntington Russell and fellow classmate Alphonso Taft founded the Skull and Bones society at Yale University, a branch of the Bavarian Illuminati. Members, known as “Bonesmen,â€




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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2011, 23:15 
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What the fuck? Unless you can show me how much you're worth I'm gonna call bullshit.



It just goes to show never stick your dick in a pudding. It might still be good pudding and you can spend all afternoon explaining that, but no one\'s going to eat because you stuck your dick in it! - Ben \'yahtzee\' Croshaw


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2011, 02:06 
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I realize this makes me a Bad Liberal™ for saying this, but I'm hardly sympathetic to the OWS movement. It's not that they don't have "good ideas", it's just that those "good ideas" are either totally obvious or are fairy dust with no grasp of reality. I'm not saying this to be like your typical conservative, whose general statement through this has either been "fuck you, I got mine" (rich guys) or "FUCKIN' DIRTY HIPPIES! AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!" (the poor ones, who will fall for anything so long as they're allowed to keep their guns, it seems). I'm saying that there is a palpable irony in someone sending a Twitter message on their iPhones while wearing a store-bought Che Guevara shirt and a pair of Chuck Taylors about how Corporations Are Bad.

Yes, some of the underlying message in the OWS movement is reasonable, if you think broadly. Corporations, by their very nature, suck. They create a product with a military-like efficiency that the public wants and/or needs. Think of it as the proverbial hot dog; everyone likes a hot dog, but no one wants to know how they are made. But you can't say corporations suck on a Scotch brand pressboard written with a Sharpie that you bought at Target without looking like an ironic tool. And therein lies the irony: we're in this mess because no one practices what they preach. Everyone who hasn't been living under a rock the past ten years knows that Walmart is a terrible corporation that pays their female work force much less than their men, and tried to get away with it, and yet, we still shop there to save $.29 on a bag of Doritos. Hell, Coca Cola has even sponsored campaigns to break Latin American unions by [url=http://http://killercoke.org/]having their union leaders killed[/url], yet everyone buys it without thinking twice. I make a conscious effort to try to put the Walmarts and the Coca Colas out of my life as much as possible; I buy free trade goods at small, locally owned businesses, and I drink locally produced drinks as well (if I'm drinking soda, I tend to go with Hosmer's, based in eastern CT). But it's not plausible to cater a business around me, and let's face it, I pay a premium for my social consciousness. That's too much to ask for people who are too poor to do otherwise, notwithstanding those who are too ambivalent to care, and going after corporations and their Wall Street day-trader backers to "force" a system one doesn't understand tends to cause more harm than good. If you want to punish corporations, it's not enough to just camp out and beat drums (or cops; hear that, Oakland?); you have to make some conscious lifestyle changes.

So that leaves us with Washington, where I frankly think the movement should have started. However, even this is a fallacy. As Quanta pointed out, we have little to blame for our politicians sucking other than ourselves. The 2012 Presidential election will be the fourth one I'll be able to vote in, and in none of them have we had any legitimate choice other than two big parties, who have a mutual, Heaven and Hell-like relationship to each other. After all, without good, there is no evil, even if the definition of "good" and "evil" is up for partisan debate. Third parties and/or outside the mainstream candidates get roundly and routinely mocked by both the people and the media in America, despite there being a minor cry out for them (how else do we explain Sarah Palin and Herman Cain?), and why not? Americans will vote where they're told to. The system will not fix itself until more Americans educate themselves to the point where they can make better decisions for themselves, and reject the status quo. Are you upset that Barack Obama hasn't been rainbows and unicorn cumshots since taking office, like he promised? If you'd have done the research, you'd have seen him for what he is: a centrist with a Keynesian view on economics and a disturbing one on social liberties, an irony missed by a lot of his fans in '08. At the end of the day in November of 2012, everyone will plug their noses and support the asshole in Blue (Obama) or the asshole in Red (likely Romney), despite not really supporting either. And until America stops "settling" where they're told by people with a financial stake in the matter, things will not change.

Our democracy is weird: it's one of the few that actually works as advertised. Our people really do have the power. They just have to use it responsibly, and they are too distracted to do so. This is a much bigger problem than "SHIT IS FUCKED UP AND BULLSHIT".


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 Post subject: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2011, 11:28 
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Wall street is responsible for America being an economic super power today

Hitler was partially responsible for Nazi Germany becoming a super power

Gaddafi was responsible for economic strides towards national independence in libya

Stalin was completely responsible for Russia going from a nation of surfs to the second largest industry in the world(He did this in five years btw)


What I am trying to say, is good for America does not always equate to actual goodness. If we were to justify the actions of a corporation with the outcome(Ie, economic growth within the country), than people like Stalin should be our idols. Take a look at what is going on, beyond the argument of this movements practicality. They are angry with the way things are, their fight is being completely censored and ridiculed by the media. This last bit alone is not excusable. Protesters being arrested is not excusable. How can laws limiting peaceful protest be anything but fascist? Just because we are in a far more enlightened society where people do not get drug into an alley and shot in the head for voicing their opinion, does not mean that we are a perfect just society. America is just nice with its fascism. Fascism, I might add, that is not seen as fascism because it is more fueled b the private sector than the government itself. I would rather America was a just and fair society completely open and free, a million times over, than an economic super power house. It depresses me to no end, the fact that few people would agree with this. the fact that all everyone cares about is cash.

If this was happening in china or Russia or north Korea or any other nation that we despise, we would be rooting for the movement. 'Look at them standing up and taking down those who oppress them!". But here the common sentiment is more along the lines of "Shut up already, I am tired of hearing about you in the news, I am completely contempt with the way the world is right now because my life is easy and doesn't directly deal with the issues at hand".

In retrospect ten years or twenty years from now, all the people that scoffed this movement will look back and think, "If only I joined it, the momentum may have just been enough" but by then it will be far too late. On the other hand, if the movement did succeed in causing some massive political reform, it will be seen as one of the greatest moments in American history, even by people who today think it is lame. But that wont happen, the nation is "good enough", why the fuck should we try and make it better?

Quote:
So that leaves us with Washington, where I frankly think the movement should have started. However, even this is a fallacy. As Quanta pointed out, we have little to blame for our politicians sucking other than ourselves. The 2012 Presidential election will be the fourth one I'll be able to vote in, and in none of them have we had any legitimate choice other than two big parties, who have a mutual, Heaven and Hell-like relationship to each other. After all, without good, there is no evil, even if the definition of "good" and "evil" is up for partisan debate. Third parties and/or outside the mainstream candidates get roundly and routinely mocked by both the people and the media in America, despite there being a minor cry out for them (how else do we explain Sarah Palin and Herman Cain?), and why not? Americans will vote where they're told to. The system will not fix itself until more Americans educate themselves to the point where they can make better decisions for themselves, and reject the status quo. Are you upset that Barack Obama hasn't been rainbows and unicorn cumshots since taking office, like he promised? If you'd have done the research, you'd have seen him for what he is: a centrist with a Keynesian view on economics and a disturbing one on social liberties, an irony missed by a lot of his fans in '08. At the end of the day in November of 2012, everyone will plug their noses and support the asshole in Blue (Obama) or the asshole in Red (likely Romney), despite not really supporting either. And until America stops "settling" where they're told by people with a financial stake in the matter, things will not change.

Our democracy is weird: it's one of the few that actually works as advertised. Our people really do have the power. They just have to use it responsibly, and they are too distracted to do so. This is a much bigger problem than "SHIT IS FUCKED UP AND BULLSHIT



I agree with this for the most part, however A: Washington or wall street, it is good that the issue is being protested. Washington may be better, but it is better than a year ago when no one was protesting it at all. B: the masses has always been at the mercy of the media parties(D, R), but they don't always have to be. The country is bubbling over with idealism these days. Some good, some bad(tea party), but the fact is that things like this come in cycles and if there is a time reform might happen, it is now. I agree completely that this is probably a useless cause, but it is still gaining momentum and is far from dissipating. If anything perhaps a new subparty will rise from the left, a liberal tea party equivalent. A party centered around improving life for the 99%. I would like to see this, though I realize any such party would probably end up being nothing more than a sword wielded to gain support, I would still like to see attempts made.


As far as conscious changes in life style to change things, that will never happen. Generally in times of reform it is something along the lines of ten percent of the population that pushes things into play, not enough to bankrupt evil corporations. Things cannot be changed through consumption tactics, only through the same thing that empowers these entities: The media. If momentum continues to grow, more and more media organizations will be forced to switch sides. We are lucky that all of this is happening in the era of the open internet(Which might be soon coming to an end btw), where independent media is thriving. Unfortunately we live in an era where the majority of the people that vote are not too effected politically by this open source of information and this attempt at reform may have in fact, come too early.


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